Curse

twicky_kid · Sep 11, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'm going to ask if you've ever seen the following;

Me/E
Mantra of Recovery {E}, ... , Ward Against Melee

Yes, its grotesque but without GoLE they wouldn't be able to keep up with the massive amount of energy that bar cost.

Neo-LD · Sep 11, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I am not sure that SoD is really that viable without the huge defensive infrastructure of block already in place. The recharge on SoD is kind of long for a big prot

Recharge is nearly irrelevent for big prots. You shouldnt need to cast Spirit Bond, Prot Spirit, and inclusively Shield of Deflection, more than once every 10 or 15 seconds. If that.

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and being able to say "no matter what you definately can't touch this guy" isn't as nice if you don't have the "and you probably can't touch anyone else" clause. When SoD was first being run near the buff I didn't find it effective fighting against it. When you make the only effective play a team can make adren spike through full party protting, SoD is VERY strong, when physicals can pressure your team and switch targets so that it matters, the SoD bar looks like a fairly gimpy prot bar to me.

This stems from the fundamental discrepency between how SoD is supposed to be used, and how it is actually used. Look at the other big prots - Neither PS or SB arent meant to be spammed on recharge, they are meant to be put in place selectively to stop spikes. SoD is meant to just be an elite version of that (instead of just reducing the damage, it pretty much negates all of it). It is NOT meant to be something to spam all over the place to make one teammate immortal every 5 seconds. Sure, the current usage of SoD (using it on any ol' guy that has a warrior on him) would become massively inefficient if SoD were to become unspammable. But thats a good thing (for the game).

Also, SoD would still be perfectly playable, just only in its intended role. SoD monks would drop their e-management baggage (GoLE, Divine Spirit) and have skill slots for minor prots (SoA, SH, even Guardian) to take up the small scale mitigation tasks that SoD can no longer force itself into.

Floski · Sep 11, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Yes, its grotesque but without GoLE they wouldn't be able to keep up with the massive amount of energy that bar cost.

....

MoR ward mesmers don't pack glyph. They use pdrain and shame to keep their energy up and the ward up 24/7. Unless they're bad.

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Yes, its grotesque but without GoLE they wouldn't be able to keep up with the massive amount of energy that bar cost.

Power Drain?

twicky_kid · Sep 11, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

....

MoR ward mesmers don't pack glyph. They use pdrain and shame to keep their energy up and the ward up 24/7. Unless they're bad.

I've seen both. At least p drain requires some skill.

Ward vs melee should be increased to 25e. It should only be usable by ele.

Byron · Sep 11, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

GW needs more [cow] imo.

Escape · Sep 11, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I think VoD is better now. Altho having an npc advantage isn't so great as most ppl think. As a team u can easly push up from the flag stand a little and take down the opposing npc's one by one. falling back can be done when pressure is getting too high. by then what's left of ure npcs should be lined up at the flag ready to massacre anything that comes in range.

ps; they should really fix the problem with the npc's balling up when they get stopped before getting to the flagstand. it's ghey.

Seamus Finn · Sep 11, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Also, SoD would still be perfectly playable, just only in its intended role. SoD monks would drop their e-management baggage (GoLE, Divine Spirit) and have skill slots for minor prots (SoA, SH, even Guardian) to take up the small scale mitigation tasks that SoD can no longer force itself into.

If you can't spam SoD, it really isn't that attractive. If I lost all the emanagement for "real monk skills" why wouldn't I jsut take the spirit bond and an elite that adds more depth to the bar since now I am using a 10 energy prot when I know there will be big damage packets and spirit bond does that just as well. The strength of SoD is that it answers almost every threat you will find in gvg at the cost of 10 energy, so you want to spam it as much as possible. SoA for pain trains? No I have SoD. Spirit Bond for adren spikes? No I have SoD. If I can't have the energy to answer everythign with an SoD, I would rather not have it on my bar since it overlaps everything else I am losing emanagement for.

Neo-LD · Sep 11, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

If you can't spam SoD, it really isn't that attractive. If I lost all the emanagement for "real monk skills" why wouldn't I jsut take the spirit bond and an elite that adds more depth to the bar since now I am using a 10 energy prot when I know there will be big damage packets and spirit bond does that just as well. The strength of SoD is that it answers almost every threat you will find in gvg at the cost of 10 energy, so you want to spam it as much as possible. SoA for pain trains? No I have SoD. Spirit Bond for adren spikes? No I have SoD. If I can't have the energy to answer everythign with an SoD, I would rather not have it on my bar since it overlaps everything else I am losing emanagement for.

It would be less effective than it is now, yes, but I think your despair is only resultant from comparing it to how powerful it is now - a level it was clearly never intended to reach. Just as SoA was still great after its nerf to 1c, so will SoD still be playable after its partners in crime are gone.

As for picking another elite because you could "just pick spirit bond instead," I have just one question: like what? Consider the following elite-less gvg prot bar:

1. Guardian / SoA / SH
2. Guardian / SoA / SH
3. Dismiss Condition
4. Reversal
5. Devo Sig / GoH
6. Stance / Return
7. Holy Veil
8. Spirit Bond

This is a completely functional bar that can get the job done. However, it is fairly obvious that it can be improved easily by substituting in an elite that performs a certain task better than one of the current skills. The two that come to mind immedeately are RC for Dismiss, and SoD for Spirit Bond. Getting more crazy, you could put ZB in the #5 slot, Empathic Removal in the #7, or Divert Hexes in the #2. Of course, the wisdom of those options is pretty questionable, but they exist.

What Im getting at is that I really dont see any elites that would be strictly better than SoD, nor any that add some new element that a prot monk previously lacked.

Seamus Finn · Sep 11, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Devo is almost never interchangeable with gift. In the current meta, enchants are stacked high enough that dwayna's can handle the power healing. With Devo out, and GoLE not present, Restore Conditions will do far more for your bar than SoD. Guardian/SoA will save more energy from melee pressure if used correctly and spirit bond will serve just as well for spikes. RC adds another power heal, condi control and in a sense energy management. SoD just does what other things on your bar do but marginally better/worse.

Neo-LD · Sep 11, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

You arent making any sense. RC is just a (usually) better Dismiss. SoD is just a (usually) better Spirit Bond. Take a step back and realize the double standard you are applying to your own logic and realize that both skills

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just [do] what other things on your bar do but better

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Devo is almost never interchangeable with gift

Sure it is. If you dont think that Gift's speed will matter, its perfectly legit to use Devotion instead and save yourself some energy and attribute points.

wuzzman · Sep 11, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

remove energy mangaments for monks and you will create a new way. 6-minute-match-way.

Blame the Monks · Sep 11, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

remove energy mangaments for monks and you will create a new way. 6-minute-match-way.

Tell that to EviL.

OH WAIT THEY QUIT BECAUSE THIS GAME SUCKS DICK. My bad, carry on.

pah01 · Sep 11, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Tell that to EviL.

OH WAIT THEY QUIT BECAUSE THIS GAME SUCKS DICK. My bad, carry on.

lol, qft

wuzz man you are an idiot

Seamus Finn · Sep 11, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

You arent making any sense. RC is just a (usually) better Dismiss. SoD is just a (usually) better Spirit Bond. Take a step back and realize the double standard you are applying to your own logic and realize that both skills.

No double standard here. Let me fix your statement. RC is basically ALWAYS better than dismiss and sometimes MUCH BETTER than dismiss, with the exception of it not being self targetting(which is a non-issue since you would have a draw or second condi on teh other monk anyhow, so yes, in any situation that matters these days RC is better than dismiss) whereas SoD is sometimes better than Spirit Bond(and in the current meta you may even go so far as to say often, but I wouldn't). The longer recharge and little effect on casters is noteworthy as well as the fact that as I said, it overlaps more than one skill on a normal prot monk bar that you propose should be run away whereas RC simply upgrades a slot quite a bit. If I can't spam SoD and give a quick easy answer to any threat around, I am just giving up an elite slot to replace my spirit bond with something that I don't have the luxury of using much differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Sure it is. If you dont think that Gift's speed will matter, its perfectly legit to use Devotion instead and save yourself some energy and attribute points.

As I said, it is almost never. I believe I gave the only condition where it is at all viable and it is still pretty suspect. Again, keep in mind that the speed difference is huge, and the difference in healing is substantial as well. Divine favor points are something I wouldn't think twice about putting somewhere else in current monk bars.

Phe Belladona · Sep 12, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'm going to ask if you've ever seen the following;

Me/E
Mantra of Recovery {E}, ... , Ward Against Melee

Have you ever seen a build involving a MoR Ward Mesmer that didnt have GoLE on the team? do you really think a ward is all the defense and the others do take FULL advantage of GoLE -.-

s w o r d y · Sep 12, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Back to one of the original points, tactics in GvG is just plain horrible now. GvG is just butting heads at the stand in a block fest. Ridiculous. All the points about the proactive tactics that use to be used is sadly missed.
18/20 minute VoD has a bit to do with it, and plenty to do with the skill saturation and dwindling player base.

pah01 · Sep 12, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by s w o r d y

Back to one of the original points, tactics in GvG is just plain horrible now. GvG is just butting heads at the stand in a block fest. Ridiculous. All the points about the proactive tactics that use to be used is sadly missed.
18/20 minute VoD has a bit to do with it, and plenty to do with the skill saturation and dwindling player base.

I think you are talking crap.

just rude · Sep 12, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

agreed, games were better.
Having npcs give morale boosts is a great idea to force ppl to split again. Seeing 2 top ranked teams fight in one corner of the frozen isle destroyed GW for me. People dont even care about splitting anymore, gvgs used to be real dynamic, now its just 8v8 nonsense.

all untargeted defense needs to be crushed out of existence, DA, Aegis, Bsurge w/wards, how much RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing physical protection do u need, LOL. MoR needs to go away again. Any type of incidental not on target offense needs to go as well, getting pressure cause some1 kites by you is lame. I kinda think that would be taken care of if everyone stopped camping wards.

it would force people to get better if they actually had to hit or save a specific target.

wishful thinking is nice, but anet's not gonna do shit. they would rather have ultra-defense carebear bullshit with matches lasting a short as possible cause they already know no why in hell anythings gonna die until VoD.

Neo-LD · Sep 12, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

No double standard here. Let me fix your statement. RC is basically ALWAYS better than dismiss and sometimes MUCH BETTER than dismiss, with the exception of it not being self targetting(which is a non-issue since you would have a draw or second condi on teh other monk anyhow, so yes, in any situation that matters these days RC is better than dismiss) whereas SoD is sometimes better than Spirit Bond(and in the current meta you may even go so far as to say often, but I wouldn't). The longer recharge and little effect on casters is noteworthy as well as the fact that as I said, it overlaps more than one skill on a normal prot monk bar that you propose should be run away whereas RC simply upgrades a slot quite a bit. If I can't spam SoD and give a quick easy answer to any threat around, I am just giving up an elite slot to replace my spirit bond with something that I don't have the luxury of using much differently.

Its unbelievable that you completely disregard RC's inability to self-cast and belittle SoD's superiority as "sometimes better". Lets get the facts straight:

RC cannot self target which makes it worse than Dismiss in plenty of situations. There is no way to mitigate this weakness without using up some of the rest of your team's resources. SoD is 10x more useful than Spirit Bond against Physical-based builds, which is to say, against just about every threatening team you will face. Guys with Spirit Bond on them can still easily die, guys with SoD on them pretty much cant. Sounds like a significant upgrade to me.

Let me clarify something: If GoLE, DS, etc were to dissapear, I personally would pick RC if given the choice. However, this argument is not about which skill is slightly better. Its about whether or not SoD would still be runnable if you took away its supporting cast. Without question, it would.

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As I said, it is almost never. I believe I gave the only condition where it is at all viable and it is still pretty suspect. Again, keep in mind that the speed difference is huge, and the difference in healing is substantial as well. Divine favor points are something I wouldn't think twice about putting somewhere else in current monk bars.

No way - If either skill is stronger, its Devotion Signet. I havent needed or wanted GoH on any bar I have run in the past few weeks. Proper defense has HP bars going down slow enough that Gift's speed will almost never matter - and in instances where it would, you should probably be casting a Prot or Dismiss instead.